Cloud Will Fail Many Times Before Devs Find Ways To Exploit It In The Long Run

“The cloud is here to say,” says Celtoys boss Don Williamson.

Posted By | On 23rd, Nov. 2015 Under News | Follow This Author @GamingBoltTweet


crackdown_3_gamescom_2015_1

Another area of interest these days is cloud computing, especially given Microsoft’s demonstration of its capabilities with Crackdown 3. Several other areas of gaming like PlayStation Now and Frontier’s Elite Dangerous use cloud computing in their own right. However, how will this help fuel graphics and newer scenarios in the coming years? Will there be more reliance on the cloud and less on the actual hardware of the console?

“I’m entirely convinced that some of the routes we are investing money in right now will prove to be financially and environmentally unable to scale. However, the cloud is here to stay and we will fail many times before we find ways to exploit it in the long run,” Don Williamson, founder of Celtoys said to GamingBolt.

“If we break the typical game engine pipeline into pieces there are many parts that offer unique opportunities for distribution. Imagine the creation of this new cloud infrastructure how you would the evolution of 3D engines written in software, to their modern-day GPU accelerated counterparts: we’re trying to create a big GPU in the sky.”

He then talks about the benefits of cloud gaming and how complex graphical parameters such as global illumination and geometry patterns can be rendered on remotely located machines, whilst being shared by many players.

“Even if players aren’t part of the same session, they’ll be exploring the same worlds. Work such as global illumination, visibility, spatial reasoning and complex geometry optimisation can be factored into their low frequency contributors, clustered, computed and cached on machines thousands of miles away, to be shared between many players. Whatever client hardware is used to retrieve this data will augment that in ways that don’t make sense to distribute.”

Don also suggests that the cloud can also be used to write down the entire game engine on whatever platform you want to play the game on.

“Of course the other element to cloud rendering is the ability to write an engine once for the target platform that can be distributed live to many varying devices on your wrist, in your pocket or on a screen in your lounge. We already have examples of this working really well on your local network (e.g. the Wii-U) but I think there’s a long way to go before the issues of latency and cost are solved.”

What are your thoughts on Don’s statements? Sound off in the comments section below and stay tuned for our complete interview soon.


Awesome Stuff that you might be interested in

  • Terminator

    As if the DX12 article wasn’t enough a few days ago now we got another Cloud article…can’t wait for the Basement Dweller Armchair Engineers for their full analysis. Someone bring the Root Beer, I got the popcorn ready. Ready to laugh my a$$ of at the naysayers.

    • Starman

      loll .. xbotmk or whatever stupid name he will surface with today, will be here soon , but skip right over his favorite console article …

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_tpOqHGvHlR:disqus

      Well given your comment below I am not convinced your area of knowledge qualifies in a discussion about the Cloud.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      Did you even bother to read the article?

      “I’m entirely convinced that some of the
      routes we are investing money in right now will prove to be financially
      and environmentally unable to scale. However, the cloud is here to stay
      and we will fail many times before we find ways to exploit it in the
      long run,” Don Williamson, founder of Celtoys.

      Now granted Don Williamson of Celtoys is near persona non grata in the gaming industry, but he has echoed some of my issues with cloud computing and gaming. Whenever a new game is released we are treated to people complaining about DLC, Day 1 DLC, Season Passes and Microtransactions. What happens when the Cloud Gaming business model includes Cloud Service Fees?

    • Terminator

      What you are asking me is not what my comment was about. What you are asking me is another whole issue when the Cloud comes to fruit at some point.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      With all due respect your written English is not very articulate.

      Your first comment you were suggesting that anti-Xbox people will flock to this article to dismiss the cloud as a viable solution for gaming. The fact is the article is about Don Williamson outlining the challenges that exist in deploying clouds within gaming. Which is why I asked if you read the article. Don Williamson sounds a lot like some of the people you refer to as “Basement Dweller Armchair Engineers”.

      Your response did not clear the air at all and only invites more questions.

      What you are asking me is not what my comment was about.

      Yes it was — In terms of what you typed I responded to your comment specifically.

      What you are asking me is another issue if the Cloud comes to fruit at some poi t.

      Can you repeat this using complete sentences?

    • Terminator

      “Your first comment you were suggesting that anti-Xbox people will flock to this article to dismiss the cloud as a viable solution for gaming.”

      Yep.

      The issue of The Cloud turning into somewhat of a subscription service is a total different case to that of The Cloud working or not.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      OK well my response was 100% germane to your comment.

      The issue of The Cloud turning into somewhat of a subscription service is a total different case to that of The Cloud working or not.

      Actually it is not. If the Cloud can’t be implemented in a manner that enhances revenues it won’t be an option long term. Gaming companies exist for the dual purpose of entertaining you and collecting revenues.

      I was just speculating about a subscription service, that is just one way to monetize. Perhaps it could be ad-driven? This multiplayer match brought to you by Mountain Dew. 🙂

    • Terminator

      When I say working I mean as its been advertise for Xbox One and its games. Making money out of it would be step two but step one is making it run.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      Making it run happens behind closed doors. Making it profitable turns it into a viable option for a product.

    • Terminator

      Make it run and shut the naysayers. Make it profitable is business and ok by me.

    • Edonus

      What happens when the cloud service ***doesnt*** include fees?

      The thing is is you dont know what the business model is. Speculating on a possible negative is foolish when the total opposite positive of no fees just enhanced performance is just as viable.

      MS built their cloud for many other services and built the X1 to piggy back off of it. they make money on their cloud infrastructure already. As for standard integration into system now and in the future its totally possible that the fees are added in price of the console and games.

    • Riggerto

      To be able identify the “basement dweller armchair engineers” from the professional engineers would require you to be an expert.

      If you are not an expert then there must be some other attribute you use to identify a “basement dweller armchair engineer”. I wonder what it could be…

    • Terminator

      LOL nice try there but one doesn’t always need to be an expert themselves to identify the deficiencies on others.

    • Riggerto

      Exactly.
      Hence why belittling people as “armchair engineers” is redundant.

    • Terminator

      No, they deserve that title for thinking they know more than the people who work with this technology.

    • Riggerto

      “one doesn’t always need to be an expert themselves to identify the deficiencies on others.”

    • Terminator

      You wish that applied to me but sadly you are mistaken.

    • Riggerto

      I know it doesn’t apply to you. That’s why it is so entertaining.

    • Terminator

      Doesn’t surprise me to see TrollBotFailMk1’s cheerleader defending those who think they know more than the actual developers.

  • Starman

    playstation now isn’t cloud computing , it’s age old streaming , knock it off

    • rudero

      ? Is it not all streaming? One system does the work and streams it to another system. No?

    • DarthDiggler

      @rudero:disqus

      You are 100% correct as long as an application depends on the internet or remote resources it is technically a Cloud application.

    • Michael

      not! Ps now is only streaming. There is no compute.

    • Terminator
    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      Thank you Captain Obvious. 🙂

    • Terminator

      ok

    • DarthDiggler

      @Michael:disqus

      With ALL due respect Michael — You do not know what you are talking about.

      not! Ps now is only streaming. There is no compute.

      PS Now does computing, storage and streaming. When you fire up a game it has to remotely load that game on a PS3 sitting in a data center. All processing and storage for the game takes place remotely.

      Netflix which does streaming exclusively is done with cloud tech. Streaming requires some computer power remotely but does use quite a bit of storage depending on what you are streaming.

      You are 2 comments deep and both were factually incorrect, I am not confident you are really familiar with Cloud Technology outside of what Microsoft tells you. Do you have any more misconceptions you need me to clear up for you?

    • Terminator

      Oh now I am intrigued…”outside of what Microsoft tells you”?

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      Be intrigued it won’t cost you anything. 🙂

      Ever since Microsoft started touting the cloud and especially since Crackdown 3 reveal, many Xbox fans have been touting this as the feature that will win MS this generation of Console war.

      Few of them realize that the technology within Crackdown 3 isn’t owned by Microsoft, it is owned by Cloudgine.

      Even fewer of them realize that any publisher of scale can set up their own Cloud solutions perhaps even hire Cloudgine.

      Many seem to think the Cloud is something exclusive to Microsoft.

      I am not including you when I say that. I am just saying in general there seems to be a great deal of misconceptions from Xbox fans pertaining to the cloud.

      I am just unsure how the Cloud will work with gaming. In terms of the cost of a game the Cloud adds costs the more ambitious features you want to pull off will likely cost you more.

      Are you trying to suggest @disqus_QKXNGjpEzv:disqus has a commanding level of Cloud knowledge? 🙂

    • Terminator

      “I am just unsure how the Cloud will work with gaming.” Well you are just like them then, in the sense of “a lot of talk but don’t know much”.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      “I am just unsure how the Cloud will work with gaming.” Well you are just like them then, in the sense of “a lot of talk but don’t know much”.

      I know exactly what I am talking about. I am speaking in an economic matter. I think in 3D. 🙂

      I said this above but let me expand…

      In many ways what it is capable of is immaterial. If it doesn’t draw in revenues you are mis-managing your corporate resources. Why would MS slice a bunch of servers out for a game when they could possibly make more money running office applications on that same hardware? There is not only a hardware cost there is an opportunity cost.

    • Terminator

      Well I am no talking about economics but The Cloud ☁ and its capabilities and what Microsoft is trying to do with it in games.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      Well the capabilities are only half of the equation. If it doesn’t make money it doesn’t happen or it stops before it gets started.

      MS doesn’t have an unlimited amount of servers and their stock holders will want those resources to go to clients that pay the most.

    • Terminator

      I just dont care about that right now because my main point from the very beginning with my initial comment is that when a developer or someone that works with the cloud says it can do something for the Xbox One naysayers come to call them liars and they are wrong.

    • Terminator

      I wont argue that some fans are putting a lot of faith on The Cloud.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      I don’t blame them either, but I think people are putting the cart before the horse. Notice no other developer has revealed any plans to do what MS is doing with Crackdown 3. My bet is they are all waiting to see how it works and how it makes money.

    • Terminator

      Even fewer, except those working hands on with such technology, know what other things The Cloud is capable off. (This is where most of us fall in)

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_369sKTm9R9:disqus

      In many ways what it is capable of is immaterial. If it doesn’t draw in revenues you are mis-managing your corporate resources.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_tpOqHGvHlR:disqus

      Streaming is a form of Cloud Computing. Nearly anything you do on the internet is a form of Cloud Computing.

      With all due respect, now that we established you don’t know what you are talking about – why don’t you dismiss yourself from this conversation?

      EDIT – I just like how you respond to a comment about PlayStation Now which doesn’t appear in this thread of comments. Why don’t you knock it off with your rehearsed knee-jerk responses?

    • rudero

      With this being on the topic but not trying to enter any war, would it not also be safe to assume that the process that is being more heavily used in general consumers hands are also allowing a lot more viable information when its sole purpose is for gaming? You would think that Sony is collecting all this information for the inevitable cloud compute boosting for physical hardware where as microsofts hands on has been about emails, information, etc etc. as far as large base testing.
      Microsoft just like talking with bullhorns when it comes to the future to make it sound like they are innovative and ahead of the competition when anyone with age knows it takes a long while and several adaptations for them to ever get anything right.

    • DarthDiggler

      @rudero:disqus

      I am sure Sony is at work within their R&D labs at enhancing their cloud solutions. Microsoft definitely has a leg up in terms of infrastructure with Azure. That being said technically there is nothing stopping Sony from partnering with a cloud company to enhance their infrastructure.

      One of the issues I see with MS will be stockholders. While office based applications will require a good infrastructure, gaming will require a level of performance that is likely higher than office applications. I am not sure how they will monetize that in a manner that the stock holders don’t see the Business clients subsidizing the Gaming clients. Unless they plan on collecting Cloud Service Fees or perhaps they will raid the Xbox Live Revenues to cover the costs.

    • rudero

      Appreciate the info!!

    • GHz

      “One of the issues I see with MS will be stockholders.”

      Azure isn’t making them money?

      “gaming will require a level of performance that is likely higher than office applications.”

      1st look @ their partnership with NVidia besides MSFT’s own homebrewed solutions.

      ” I am not sure how they will monetize that in a manner that the stock holders don’t see the Business clients subsidizing the Gaming clients. Unless they plan on collecting Cloud Service Fees”

      MSFT whole approach was to make this accessible to publishers, devs, engineers as far as price goes. That was one of the main hurdles. Scale @ the right price. Jon Shiring of Respawn Ent. spoke about this. He claimed that MSFT solved that problem, which gave them the opportunity to try out creative ways to use the cloud to improve on their game design experience. And according to Jon, their success in regards, granted MSFT an audience of very interested game industry folks. How excited were they? According to Jon, they are pounding @ MSFT door wanting access to Azure. Thanks to Jon and his team proving to their peers, that a problem which was believed to be impossible to do, was indeed doable.

    • Raj Sanghera

      @GHz Which console brand do you think is heading in the right direction and which is likely to have more success with future consoles: Xbox or ps? And with dx12 and cloud and popularity of live will Xbox one and future xboxes be better than the competition?

    • DarthDiggler

      @Raj Sanghera:disqus

      Does @TheRealGHz:disqus have a crystal ball?

      At the moment PS4 outselling XB1 2 to 1. So the ball is in their court. The problem with MS putting all this stock into the cloud is the cloud isn’t really a proprietary feature of Xbox One.

      DX12 will not be a big deal on Xbox One. Don’t believe me? See what Phil had to say about it…

    • GHz

      Mayne! You’re on a mission!

      “At the moment PS4 outselling XB1 2 to 1.”

      So 0_O !!! What does that have to do with the kind of exclusive games & experiences that will come 1st on the latter. Enjoy playing the game, PS4 sell more than the XB1. I hope for your sake its cloud assisted and brings about a new experience.

      “The problem with MS putting all this stock into the cloud is the cloud isn’t really a proprietary feature of Xbox One.”

      Why don’t you just arrange a meeting with MSFT & their stock holders and have a long productive chat? You are so concerned. Let me know how that meeting go. 😉

      Yup that’s what Phil said. DX12 wont dramatically change graphics on XB1 & we’ll see improvements in games that use DX12. Next question is what’s Phil’s definition of “not dramatic”?

      @nickomatic20 When you think about start of gen to end of gen teams learn a lot. DX12 will help as well, think PDZ to Halo 4.— Phil Spencer (@XboxP3) April 7, 2014

    • GHz

      I think XB1 is heading into the right direction. Only cause MSFT is not dependent on 3rd party to jump start next gen. They own, DX12, XBLCLoud, Windows 10, and the hardware (XB1) which is designed to exploit them to the fullest. PS4 may be selling more consoles but I think XB1 will be the 1st to give us a real NextGen experience.

    • DarthDiggler

      @TheRealGHz:disqus

      Azure isn’t making them money?

      Azure is making them money, the issue I see with stockholders is how will MS monetize their gaming cloud solutions? There is an opportunity cost to using Azure for gaming. If the business side of Azure picks up, does the gaming get squeezed as they expand their infrastructure?

      Not to mention when do the servers get turned off? It would be a real d*ckhead move for them to cancel Crackdown 3 servers when Crackdown 4 came out, but MS has done stuff like that in the past. IE: Original Xbox was abandoned when X360 came out.

      1st look @ their partnership with NVidia besides MSFT’s own homebrewed solutions.

      I am familiar with NVIDIA’s cloud servers, I have helped design and sell some of them.

      At the end of the day I could see something like gaming requiring a level of performance not required with standard office applications which should technically raise the cost to the cloud users.

      I am not sure how MS Monetizes all of this.

      MSFT whole approach was to make this accessible to publishers, devs, engineers as far as price goes. That was one of the main hurdles. Scale @ the right price. Jon Shiring of Respawn Ent. spoke about this. He claimed that MSFT solved that problem, which gave them the opportunity to try out creative ways to use the cloud to improve on their game design experience.

      Respawn’s use of the cloud was limited nothing like what MS is planning with Crackdown at all. While MS may have solved Respawn’s limited problems, I think CD3 presents a whole new ball of wax.

      And according to Jon, their success in regards, granted MSFT an audience of very interested game industry folks. How excited were they? According to Jon, they are pounding @ MSFT door wanting access to Azure. Thanks to Jon and his team proving to their peers, that a problem which was believed to be impossible to do, was indeed doable.

      Funny thing is why haven’t we been seeing news of all kinds of games doing things in Azure? Because it never happened, what you said here reads like a Microsoft Press Release and excitement does not equal actual games on the store shelves using Azure Cloud technology.

    • GHz

      “Funny thing is why haven’t we been seeing news of all kinds of games doing things in Azure? Because it never happened, what you said here reads like a Microsoft Press Release and excitement does not equal actual games on the store shelves using Azure Cloud technology.”

      And ultimately, for you, it has to be this way. Any developer who praises their experiences with Azure is part of a conspiracy to trick us all. I bet you kneel down every night praying that Crackdown 3 fails @ launch to justify your beliefs.

    • Michael

      Streaming is streaming. Netflix streams but it isn’t cloud computing. Stop with the crazy talk.

    • DarthDiggler

      @Michael:disqus

      The definition of cloud computing is not up for discussion, that would be crazy talk!

      Streaming is a form of Cloud Computing. Pretty much anything you do on the internet is.

      You are 100% incorrect on the matters.

    • Gamez Rule

      PS-Now and Azure not meant to be compared, because they aren’t the same thing nor are they meant to be. But yet we all know that it is possible for Sony’s servers to do what Azure does if Sony were given the software to do so. This could also be done on Amazon, Google, etc.

    • rudero

      The software is still being developed. Azure is just a fancy word for the computer farm/server farms. It does nothing but run the programs that are created.
      The buy ups are of said scenarios while companies are developing the software that will best deliver said cloud computing.
      Google, Amazon, Sony, Microsoft are all positioning themselves to best introduce software that best fits their needs.
      Sony is game focused ie why they went and purchased said farms where as Microsoft is just buying server farms to best hand out their vision of cloud computing.

  • red2k

    Thank you for talk about GPU!!!

    But anyway the Youtube morons will continue saying it’s impossible improve the GPU by cloud computing.

    • DarthDiggler

      @red2k:disqus

      Within gaming there are challenges in deploying processing and storage capabilities to the cloud. The technical challenges are one thing the fiscal challenges are a whole other ball of wax.

      What you lack the understanding of is — just because something is technically feasible doesn’t mean you can wrap a viable business model around it.

    • red2k

      Respawn Entertainment was a small studio and they use cloud. I think i’ts all about partnership, Microsoft have the servers and cloud infrastructure and they are going to use it. The problem here is parity, PS4 can’t have access to Azure and that will be a limiting factor for multiplataform (PC can). Microsoft is making moves to simplify the use of the cloud exclusively for Physics and they will put the tools for Devs probably on Q4 of 2016.

    • Gamez Rule

      “The problem here is parity, PS4 can’t have access to Azure and that will be a limiting factor for multiplataform (PC can)”…

      Why can’t Sony / PS4 have access to Azure?Do you think that Azure is only to be used by MS?

    • red2k

      Microsoft already have the infrastucture. Sony need a huge investment and they are not going to spend the money. In fact, microsoft Azure cost more than the entire PS division. PSN can make cloud computing but their servers are waek. If you see the video about how work Crackdown you are goin to see the importance of large number of servers because the buildings was ran by the cloud on diferents servers and Sony don’t have the scale to do that. Their network is already compromised with PSN and PSnow.

    • Gamez Rule

      Sony’s servers can do what Azure does if it were given the software to do
      so. It could also be done on Amazon, Google, etc. Sony could use Azure itself. Azure isn’t just for MS to use, and servers could used by any of the bit companies. Sony can use ALL companies if needed just like others do?

    • red2k

      Amazon and Google are two of richest companys in the world and they use it for other aplications on their websites and Sony have economics problems. They can’t even improve the PSN speed how they will going to buy a massive cloud infrastucture?

    • DarthDiggler

      @red2k:disqus

      RED PLEASE STOP THERE IS TOO MUCH DUMB COMING FROM YOU.

      Amazon and Google are two of richest companys in the world and they use it for other aplications on their websites and Sony have economics problems

      Amazon rents out their clouds, I assume Google has a similar program, but I am not as familiar. Sony’s PlayStation Division has been doing quite well with revenues (maybe you haven’t heard but PS4 outsells Xbox One about 2 to 1).

      They can’t even improve the PSN speed how they will going to buy a massive cloud infrastucture?

      I am going to go out on a limb here — but you don’t own any PlayStation Consoles so you don’t know how well the PSN performs. I have owned every PlayStation branded item and the PSN on PS4 has few issues performs well and doesn’t have significantly more downtime than XBL.

    • red2k

      How you can asume that Google rent their cloud??
      -Actually they own the bigest cloud infrastucture in the world.
      Do you say PS4 make more revenue because sells more???
      -Sorry but the factual number put Xbox Division ahead…
      http://www.icxm.net/x/microsoft-sells-most-games-so-far.html
      And… PSN is way slower than Xbox Live Xbox do like 65mbps and PS4 is around 47mbps. Is way better play on XBL.

      Again your arguments are destroyed. If im you ( if you have fait on PS) then wait until PS launch a game using cloud and then come here and try to talk with some valid arguments.

    • Gamez Rule

      I’ve already answered your question lol. Read above

    • DarthDiggler

      @gamezrule:disqus

      @red2k:disqus has to be one of the dumbest commenters I have seen in a LONG time. Its like he read a brochure on MS Azure and he is now a cloud expert.

    • Gamez Rule

      Agreed 100% lol

    • DarthDiggler

      @red2k:disqus

      Please stop talking about the Cloud and Microsoft. You are ill-informed at best.

      Microsoft already have the infrastucture. Sony need a huge investment and they are not going to spend the money.

      Amazon has a bigger infrastructure — big whoop. Amazon offers their cloud ON DEMAND. So Sony doesn’t need a big investment they just need the proper opportunity.

      Most of Azure is dedicated to business applications because that is where the revenues are.

      In fact, microsoft Azure cost more than the entire PS division.

      Please provide a link to back up this claim.

      PSN can make cloud computing but their servers are waek.

      You don’t know ANYTHING about PSN’s infrastucture.

      PLEASE STOP TALKING OUT YOUR A-HOLE YOU ARE STARTING TO STINK UP THESE COMMENTS.

      I can appreciate you love MS and Xbox. I can’t appreciate that you are just fabricating things out of thin air to support your position.

      If you see the video about how work Crackdown you are goin to see the importance of large number of servers because the buildings was ran by the cloud on diferents servers and Sony don’t have the scale to do that. Their network is already compromised with PSN and PSnow.

      Again more nonsense. You don’t know what you are talking about.

      Please kindly exit the conversation you have embarrassed yourself enough here junior.

    • Gamez Rule

      Makes me wonder how they believe themselves what they post sometimes☺ I think they forget that Sony was using cloud before even taking over Gaikai.

      Example = Some game streaming services get deployed through Amazon’s AWS infrastructure in more places around the world that Azure, and these included games from publishers like Electronic Arts, Ubisoft, Konami, Warner Bros, 2K, Namco Bandai, Square Enix, Capcom, Codemasters, Disney, Sega, Atari and THQ, etc.

      Why wait for Azure when other companies infrastructures can do it all right now ( like shown )?

      Thanks to Sony we now have Cloud gaming, game streaming technology, gaming on demand, remote play, cloud based TV services as well a music, etc without needing Azure.

      But IF Sony wanted to use Azure they can do as MS didn’t make Azure for only themselves to use lol.

      But lets not forget that Sony Business Solutions Corporation was looking for a server product with high flexibility and efficiency for providing easy-to-use services to its customers, and has chosen a Cisco server, Cisco Unified Computing System (“Cisco UCS”) as a core solution and has also enhanced networking around it. FlexPod configuration with NetApp has been chosen as storage for significantly improving flexibility and efficiency.

      Sony know what they are doing☺

    • DarthDiggler

      @red2k:disqus

      With all due respect here you are doing quite a bit of speaking out of your rear end. I don’t think you have an adequate grasp on the technical or business side of the Cloud to comment in a manner that is informative.

      Respawn Entertainment was a small studio and they use cloud. I think i’ts all about partnership

      Respawn employs 110 people, not the biggest studio but certainly not small.

      Microsoft have the servers and cloud infrastructure and they are going to use it.

      Respawn used Azure for Dedicated Servers ONLY. Sure it is an implementation of the cloud but that sort of solution has been in use since the dawn of online gaming.

      The problem here is parity, PS4 can’t have access to Azure and that will be a limiting factor for multiplataform (PC can).

      Are you suggesting MS would turn developers away that wanted to use the Azure cloud for PlayStation 4 games? How would a publicly traded company like Microsoft get away with NOT allowing anyone to use their services?

      That being said Amazon’s cloud is larger than Azure’s. I believe Sony is using Rackable right now for their infrastructure that could be expanded upon.

      There is nothing really unique about Azure pretty much anything you can do with Azure you can do with Amazon.

      Microsoft is making moves to simplify the use of the cloud exclusively for Physics and they will put the tools for Devs probably on Q4 of 2016.

      Wrong again. MS hired Cloudgine for the cloud based physics. Cloudgine
      is an independent company and likely will be getting hired by other
      publishers in the future like EA, Ubisoft and even Sony.

    • red2k

      Its a small studio for be a AAA developer…. In fact, they was very small when they do Titanfall because they was owned by EA. Titanfall use dedicated servers and Cloud for AI’s animations on Xbox One and use Dedicated servers. BTW Azure infrastucture cost over 9,000,000,000$ something very “normal” according to you, even a hotdog seller can buy it.
      Finally i don’t want reveal Microsoft plans they are working to put cloud in hands of more developers and their investment was huge.

    • red2k

      They indentify cloud computing as a viable business. That’s why Crackdown is on development and the people are exited with the benefits.

    • DarthDiggler

      @red2k:disqus

      Can you repeat this in English?

      Just people people are excited about benefits doesn’t mean they are willing to pay for them. If the benefits costs are competitive that makes them much more attractive.

  • Lennox

    Lots of people uninformed. Not only do you need the huge infrastructure, but you also need the local machine that can take advantage of those signals. MS is the only company with both.

    You can’t just stick cloud computing into any platform or you’ll get a subpar experience. Subpar being a huge understatement. You have to have local hardware that can work to reduce the latency from cloud computing. It just doesn’t start working.

    And to those people comparing cloud streaming and cloud computing need to stop. Cloud streaming is sending you an image. The same image that would be on your PS4 if you were playing it locally (with a bit lag). Cloud computing is using the computing power from another server to ADD power. Not mimic the consoles power

    • DarthDiggler

      @Lennox:disqus

      Not only do you need the huge infrastructure, but you also need the local machine that can take advantage of those signals. MS is the only company with both.

      Depends on the features of the Cloud. Any publisher of scale could partner with a cloud provider or they could establish their own. You don’t think EA’s dedicated server set up could be increased and used to deploy cloud gameplay features?

      Azure is an impressive cloud service, but it is NOT the only cloud service available. More come online every day.

      The PS4 is slightly more powerful than the Xbox One and has plenty of horsepower under the hood. Whatever MS can do on the local machine Sony can replicate it. Both companies likely reverse engineer their firmware updates.

      You can’t just stick cloud computing into any platform or you’ll get a subpar experience. Subpar being a huge understatement. You have to have local hardware that can work to reduce the latency from cloud computing. It just doesn’t start working.

      Well its a good thing that Sony is already ahead of the game there. PS Now has very low latency, SharePlay works just as well, sometimes better.

      And to those people comparing cloud streaming and cloud computing need to stop. Cloud streaming is sending you an image. The same image that would be on your PS4 if you were playing it locally (with a bit lag). Cloud computing is using the computing power from another server to ADD power. Not mimic the consoles power

      You need to stop narrowing the definition of Cloud computing in order to suit your point of view. The definition of Cloud Computing is not up for debate (see the definition below). Cloud computing can be used in a manner that mimics the power of the host machine or it can be used to enhance it. It all depends on what kind of implementation of the Cloud you are using. Just saying “PS Now, Netflix, etc don’t use the cloud” is categorically false and you are using that as a strawman.

      Furthermore the technology MS has showcased in Crackdown 3 is not owned by them, so that technology can be deployed on other projects that are not MS branded. If Microsoft was the only player in the game business that could potentially deploy Cloudgine’s technology, why would they be actively seeking more customers? Revisit your first 2 sentences in your comment. If that is 100% true Cloudgine wouldn’t exist, because there wouldn’t be a marketplace for them.

      http://www.cloudgine.com

    • GHz

      “Both companies likely reverse engineer their firmware updates”

      In regards to what?

    • DarthDiggler

      @TheRealGHz:disqus

      Sony and MS likely reverse engineer each other’s firmware. Any feature that comes to one platform can be replicated on the other platform.

      Cloudgine as a platform is not owned by MSFT. But Cloudgine as a
      platform also works with the unique design of XB1 and how it
      specifically communicated with XBLCloud. Can the Crackdown 3 code which
      was designed with MSFT tech (XB1+Azure) in mind, work on the PS4? The
      answer to that is we don’t know

      We do know — The Whole Purpose of a cloud is to negate hardware. Suggesting that you aren’t sure if it could work on PS4 when the hardware is very similar but slightly better is disingenuous and lacks intellectual honesty.

      Do you really think Cloudgine would create a solution that was ONLY suited for Xbox One? What would be the purpose of going into business and providing a service to “all game developers” as it states on their website if you have tailored your solution to one platform? It just doesn’t make reasonable sense!

      And the closest thing to an answer is Mark Cerny’s POV on MSFT cloud
      implementation for games. What was that he said? “That wont work well in
      the cloud”. Yoshida added that what MSFT was doing with the cloud
      (Crackdown 3) was confusing to him.

      The actual quote from Mark Cerny was “Cloud won’t work well to boost graphics” and he was Technically Cloudgine is mostly a physics play. Offloading the physics will allow the local system to raise the graphical fidelity. I would think that the internet’s latency would prevent the cloud from directly offloading the GPU perhaps some GPU features could be offloaded, but not the entire work of the GPU.

      You have an issue with remembering quotes bro. Yoshida says he doesn’t understand MS’s cloud strategy. I think that was before Crackdown 3 was revealed too and many in the game industry knew MS had a Cloud but didn’t seem like it had much purpose beyond drivatards.

      So now with the tech (XB1 & PS4) out in the open, and with steady
      development in cloud services in regards to games, Crackdown
      demonstration on an XB1 may just be a sign revealing how different these
      systems are from each other. Not saying that one is superior over the
      other, just saying that these systems were designed to solve problems
      differently. Exactly how equipt are they to take advantage of the
      growing variety of game inspired cloud services?

      Steady development? The only real Cloud effort MS has going on is Crackdown 3. IMHO Crackdown 3 will spell an early success for the Cloud in gaming or it will end up being a financial drag. Which is why you don’t see a bunch of people trying to replicated Crackdown 3, it looks cool but we do not know if a successful business model can be wrapped around the game. If the Cloud is really doing some heavy lifting there will be some cost associated with keeping those resources online. Not only the actual cost, but MS will have opportunity costs (any Azure server not doing business applications may very well be losing MS money).

      Both systems are very Cloud capable, suggesting that Xbox is more suited for this job only exposes your own bias.

    • GHz

      “Sony and MS likely reverse engineer each other’s firmware. Any feature that comes to one platform can be replicated on the other platform.”

      Yup I agree, to a certain point. Features supported via hardware usually do more.

      “We do know — The Whole Purpose of a cloud is to negate hardware. Suggesting that you aren’t sure if it could work on PS4 when the hardware is very similar but slightly better is disingenuous and lacks intellectual honesty.”

      I’m not sure because of what Cerney & Yoshida said. If the only implementation cloud can do in gaming is have servers render everything and have your machine just play host w/o having to worry about rendering graphics locally, then I’d say without a doubt PS4 can do that. But we’re talking about a situation where the host machine is actually the one doing the rendering. While the servers act as additional CPU/Memory. Imagine crackdown w/o the servers. What would building animation, lighting, debris count etc look like @ that scale? So with cloud, XB1 graphic capabilities actually got better in the sense that it can go full scale @ a large scale. Before the Crackdown demo, MSFT had already explained how they would help improve graphics locally via cloud, but Cerny said no, it wont work well.

      Either way you look at it, the cloud according to the Crackdown demo, helped to improve on graphic presentation locally. Cerny is brilliant but I dare to say he was thinking one way to say, “that wont work well”. Crack down 3 is proof that it did. It just wasn’t like how you or Cerny envisioned it.

      Yeah, yoshi didn’t understand. The inability to understand is to be confused. And don’t you think when MSFT was talking about what they will be doing with the cloud, they didn’t have Crackdown in mind? It make sense you’ll try to explain yourself based on things you’re doing or have done. For Cerney and Yoshida to talk like the way they did when asked about what MSFT was doing with the cloud make, it seems like they were not forward thinkers. I’d rather think that both teams (XB1,PS4) have their vision of gaming solutions & they have their cards close to their chest.

      So the question is a solid one. Was the PS4 designed with certain cloud technologies in mind like the XB1 was? We all know XB1 was built with the cloud in mind? Can the same be said about the pS4?

      “Steady development? The only real Cloud effort MS has going on is Crackdown 3.”
      That’s your opinion. You not wanting to recognize other developments don’t erase them out of existence. And their transparency doesn’t make them less important.
      I agree both are cloud capable. Both can take advantage Shinra tech. Both can do the Onlive (Now PS NOw) thing. XB1 can do the Crackdown thing where the XB1 does the actual rebndering. We don’t know if PS4 can do that to that degree. Can the PS4 use Cloudgine? YES it can, because we know that cloudgine is a platform solution that helps devs transition easier into game cloud development. We also know Cloudgine supports a devs design philosophy. In the case of crackdown 3, their were challenges to beat to get a game like that working. Different developers will have different needs based on their situation. When Sony announces their ver. of Crackdown, then we can talk. Like I said before, I don’t know, but blame Cerney for that.
      I’m not biased. While you’re concerned about how MSFT is handling their tech & finance, I’m looking forward to play a game like Crackdown 3. MSFT showed us something, Sony hasn’t. Simple. You can talk all the jargon you want, but then their is the reality of which system is setting us up for bigger things. That’s XB1.

    • Lennox

      Cloud streaming is mimicking the power of the console. Cloud computing is allowing the console to do more than its local hardware can. Simple as that. two very different. Sure, cloud streaming is still computing, but no where near the same way as the other.

      Never said MS owned the technology, but they are at the forefront of it. And why would Sony partner with another company to achieve this? It wouldn’t be viable financially. Amazon and Google would leave them broke by paying for a fan base of that magnitude to use their cloud. I don’t think Sony wants to take the brunt of that cost, and would rather build the infrastructure themselves.

      Yes you can in fact perform cloud computing on the PS4. But it wouldn’t be an enjoyable experience. The X1 has components inside of it to best take advantage of cloud compute. Ones that the PS4 doesn’t have.

      Never said PS Now or Netflix didn’t run off of a cloud. I said that those services and cloud compute are very different, and are in no way trying to achieve the same things. I also never said that Azure was the only cloud available. I said that MS was the only company that has BOTH the infrastructure, AND the platform to take advantage of it.

      You’re right about this though. “Whatever MS can do on the local machine Sony can replicate it.” Sony is the superior hardware company. Cloud compute is a very software heavy application though. Sony will most likely have to pay someone else to manage it.

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_FVrJWPc17C:disqus

      Cloud streaming is mimicking the power of the console. Cloud computing is allowing the console to do more than its local hardware can. Simple as that. two very different. Sure, cloud streaming is still computing, but no where near the same way as the other.

      You got any more hairs you want to split bro? I have already made this abundantly clear you aren’t teaching me ANYTHING here. Cloud streaming, Cloud computing it’s all still the Cloud! I am way beyond Cloud 101 just to be clear. 🙂

      Never said MS owned the technology, but they are at the forefront of it.

      This statement is just pure nonsense.

      How is MS at the forefront of Cloud technology? Like Mobile Microsoft was late to the virtualization game and late to the cloud game. They made some good strides, but there are a few competitors that beat MS to the punch. The fact that MS is relying on Cloudgine and do not have a solution of their own only showcases how BEHIND they are.

      And why would Sony partner with another company to achieve this? It wouldn’t be viable financially. Amazon and Google would leave them broke by paying for a fan base of that magnitude to use their cloud. I don’t think Sony wants to take the brunt of that cost, and would rather build the infrastructure themselves.

      More nonsense.

      Amazon and Google compete with Azure, you don’t think they have pricing that Sony could live with? Sony already has hosting partners anyone that hosts a server can deploy a Cloud application and presto — you have a Cloud.

      This isn’t rocket science.

      Yes you can in fact perform cloud computing on the PS4. But it wouldn’t be an enjoyable experience. The X1 has components inside of it to best take advantage of cloud compute. Ones that the PS4 doesn’t have.

      Even more nonsense.

      The whole purpose of Cloud Computing is to NOT do the computing on the local machine (PS4). The fact that you think that “Cloud Computing” would happen on the local machine really showcases your ignorance to Cloud Technology. IMHO you really don’t have any credibility talking about Cloud Technology.

      Please tell me specifically — what are these “Cloud” components that Xbox One has but PS4 doesn’t? Sony has a better GPU and faster memory. Better local hardware will be less reliance on the Cloud.

      Never said PS Now or Netflix didn’t run off of a cloud. I said that those services and cloud compute are very different, and are in no way trying to achieve the same things. I also never said that Azure was the only cloud available. I said that MS was the only company that has BOTH the infrastructure, AND the platform to take advantage of it.

      LOL nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. With all due respect you don’t know what you are talking about.

      If MS had everything under their roof why are they hiring Cloudgine? Your point of view doesn’t even hold up to basic intellectual scrutiny. If Crackdown 3 turns out to be the best thing since blowup dolls what is preventing Sony from hiring Cloudgine? Do you really think Cloudgine created a solution that is only tailored to the Xbox One?

      You’re right about this though. “Whatever MS can do on the local machine Sony can replicate it.” Sony is the superior hardware company. Cloud compute is a very software heavy application though. Sony will most likely have to pay someone else to manage it.

      So what if they will pay someone to manage it? They pay all kinds of people to do all kinds of things.

      What you seem to forget is Sony’s first party studios have some of the best developers in the world. Sony is no longer a hardware company. Sure the PS4 likely has some customization in the APU microcode, but they basically picked off the shelf parts for the PS4 (just like Xbox One). Now much of their value comes from software.

      Look with all due respect Lennox you think you know a lot more about the cloud than you do. I am waiting on your response for the what “Cloud” components that Xbox One has but PS4 doesn’t.

    • Lennox

      Wow. You have the nerve to say I don’t know what I’m talking about and you don’t even know that the innards of the X1 and PS4 are different. Same architecture, but that’s where the similarities end. The X1 architecture was built with cloud in mind. And I never said the actual cloud computing was done on the console itself. I said that you would need the hardware that could cut down on the lag. The cloud sends the console the instructions so that the console doesn’t have to write them itself (freeing up bandwidth on the console). Getting those things to happen as soon as someone interacts with them in game is the problem. Without the hardware to reduce lag, you get a bunch of things reacting looong after the fact that you’ve initiated the command.
      Everything from the move engines to the ESRAM are low latency components that help in speeding the computations from the cloud along. PS4 is high latency. It wouldn’t work anywhere near as well.
      MS hired Cloudgine because you still need an engine that can use cloud compute more efficiently. MS has the console and the infrastructure, this is all that was missing. I never said MS had it all figured out.
      Yes Sony is in partnership with another cloud company. Rackspace. But that’s the thing. It’s not theirs. They’re limited. Just like MS. Thing is, MS has a lot more room to do what they want with the cloud that they own. And to be honest, I don’t think Sony is going to use another companies cloud for compute. Like I said before, they’ll most likely build their own. That way they can access what they want, tweak what they want, etc.
      There are a few things preventing Sony from hiring Cloudgine. 1. Infrastructure. 2. The console. 3. The engineers. Pretty much the most important things that comes into getting cloud computation to work. Can they do it? Of course. But it wouldn’t be on par with what MS is dishing out. At least not right now. Few years from now they should be on the right track.
      “Sony is no longer a hardware company.” Where’d you get this from lol? They outsource their software from other companies. I’m pretty sure they are still a hardware company. Or they’d be making their own software.
      Look DarthDiggler lol. With all due respect, maybe you should do more research before you claim someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

  • GHz

    Great article. When he said,

    “I’m entirely convinced that some of the routes we are investing money in right now will prove to be financially and environmentally unable to scale.”

    Just keep in mind he said “SOME OF THE ROUTES.” This tech allows creators to find creative ways to exploit it & make their games better. Not all will be successful. At the end of the day, gamers want examples like Crackdown 3 to be reality on our consoles. You cant beat demonstrations like that, and our hopes is that they deliver.

    • DarthDiggler

      @TheRealGHz:disqus

      Oddly enough you pull a quote that speaks to the economics about the Cloud and you completely gloss over it in your zeal to celebrate Crackdown 3.

      🙂

    • GHz

      Is there anything wrong in what I said that burns your chest so much? Was my thoughts misguided to point out “Some of the Routes” and not all will succeed, and agreeing with Don? And don’t we all want crackdown 3 to be a success in showing off how the cloud can help a console improve how it handles graphics? Tell me what is wrong with that?

  • Gamez Rule

    There is a long history of distributed computing involving cloud type infrastructures, and MS did not invent them, & they didn’t invent the idea of using offloaded tasks for game loops etc. ( MMO runs almost the entirety of it’s game loop on the server side ) MS can’t even be credited for being the first company to make it commercially available either..Hmm…a service which runs the game completely, and streams it to the local machine…where have we heard of that before? Oh yeah PS-Now ☺

    Why can people not see the irony of some statements / articles… Really when looking into it Sony is simply far ahead in the playing field because they already have & use the infrastructure to do exactly where people say games will be heading in the future, and in time it will improve too.

    • ShowanW

      this makes no sense.

      Sony has done an amazing job from the beginning of the PS3 days, up to buying Gakai (which is now PSNow) to today.

      But don’t event think for one second that any of it compares to Azure.
      Microsoft is 2nd in world when it comes to data centers deployed across the world (only AMazon having more).

      1.No, Microsoft isn’t the ones who invented this, but were among the first to deploy on a mass scale of this magnitude.

      2. PS Now is equal to Netflix (pre-meditated, pre-defined image from the cloud end, beamed straight to your tv) , except you get to use a controller and interact with your screen. Games like WoW, and other MMO’s are using the cloud in completely different ways than PS Now is, just like games like Crackdown 3 will be using the cloud in completely different manner than the 2 former. Crack down won’t exist in the cloud, it will exist locally. Crackdown will call down assistance from the cloud to say, we don’t want the local box to spend time crunching the calculations to blow up a building, you do it for us.

    • DarthDiggler

      @ShowanW:disqus

      The big difference between PS Now and XB Cloud is PS Now generates revenues.

      Who said that it compares to Azure?

      1. No MS wasn’t the first. MS was late to the Virtualization game and late to the Cloud game. Just like they were late to mobile and late to video game consoles. Amazon was well positioned before MS really made headway.

      2. PS Now isn’t equal to Netflix. Netflix is 100% streaming with little to no interactivity from the user. PS Now is constant interaction and the images aren’t pre-meditated, pre-defined. They are dynamic based on what the user is doing in the game.

      Crackdown 3 will largely exist in the cloud, mostly for physics calculations. At this point we don’t know exactly. Crackdown 3’s use of the cloud will be more robust but that doesn’t diminish what the cloud is for other purposes.

      At the end of the day anything that happens in the cloud can technically come to any platform. That is the advantage of the Cloud and one of the reasons it exists.

    • ShowanW

      1.) First of all I said, mass deploy on a massive scale. Outside of Amazon, Microsoft houses more data centers than Google and Rack Space (and they pretty much started before MS) maybe not much more but still more. Doesn’t seem like them “being late to the party” in the Cloud world has effected them that much.

      2.) PS is just like Netflix… just interactive. Whatever game you pull from PSNow is 100% streaming, there is no caching, the game is already made and done (which is pre-determined, and pre-defined) nothing about God of War III is gonna change when (outside of possible lag) from Sony’s servers to your PSNow enabled device. User interaction may be dynamic (controller) but that game is still that game. Nothing is random or on the fly.

      3.) Crackdown 3 mp physics calculations will exist mostly in the cloud, but there is still a local element to the game (even in mp)

      4.) I will never diminish what the “cloud” is and the robustness thereof. At my job the cloud is just, other business’ paying us to host their environment to reduce cost of having on premise servers and IT staff.

      5.) Sony and Ninento (and whoever else wants to) can have a very robust cloud environment setup for different things. But it doesnt just magically fall in there and works. It took Sony about 2.5yrs or so, to get Gakaii servers re-purposed for PSNow.

    • Gamez Rule

      It makes perfect sense.

      I was correct as you agreed in ( 1 ) that MS didn’t invent it. BUT you thought MS were the ones that mass deployed….well they were NOT the first to deploy mass scale as that was Amazon and Google as well as OpenStack.

      PS-Now is a service supported by Rackspace *OpenStack* which gets supported by hundreds IT organizations and is maintained by a massive community of developers. Now Openstack while offering many of the same platform and infrastructure management features as Azure, OpenStack also gives you the ability to reshape it to be whatever you want and is ideal for heterogeneous infrastructure.


 

Copyright © 2009-2017 GamingBolt.com. All Rights Reserved.