PS4 – Xbox One GPU ROP Differences Don’t Matter, Numbers Only Make Sense for Building Random Data

Celtoys’ Don Williamson says “different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways”.

Posted By | On 08th, Nov. 2015 Under News


PS4 Xbox one

When it comes to the PS4 and Xbox One, much is said about the difference in RAM and GPUs that both consoles are touting. Of course, the exact nature of these GPUs hasn’t been revealed but judging by the quality of some third party titles on PS4 versus Xbox One, it’s not uncommon to think that one is better. But in which respects are they better?

GamingBolt spoke to Celtoys founder Don Williamson who is an engine and pipeline developer. Not only did he created the engine for Ubisoft’s Splinter Cell: Conviction but is also responsible for leading development of the Fable engine. Nowadays, Williamson is working on his own game which promises a never before-seen scope and helping other developers to better optimize their games. GamingBolt asked Williamson about the differences in the PS4 and Xbox One GPUs along with their ROP counts. How does these numbers figure into practical scenarios?

As Williamson states, “Data such as this really doesn’t matter as different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways. Coupled with different engines being built to take advantage of different hardware peculiarities, the numbers really only make sense if you want to build graphs of random data and strenuously imply one is better than the other. The obvious caveat here is that both are modified GCN architectures (Liverpool and Durango) so they’re closer to each other and easier to compare than previous generations.

“A great example of this was the old PS2: you had effectively 2MB of VRAM left after you stored your frame buffer. The Dreamcast had 8MB total and the Xbox had 64MB shared RAM. I remember at the time everybody going crazy about this trying to demonstrate the inferiority of the PS2 in comparisons. What was hard to explain at the time was the PS2’s DMA system was so fast that you if you were clever enough, you could swap this out 16 times a frame and get an effective 32MB of VRAM.”

There is more yet to know about each current gen console and the power they boast so stay tuned. In the meantime, let us know what you think of Willamson’s thoughts in the comments.

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  • such.wow

    What game is he making for PS4?

    • Psionicinversion

      Doesn’t say he’s making a game for ps4, just says he’s making a game

    • Mirimon

      He isn’t, he is under msft paychecks.

    • Samuel Sanchez

      He is employed by Sony most likely. Since he designed the fabled engine previously and the article says he is designing a new game but doesn’t specific Msft or Sony.

    • Psionicinversion

      Doubtful he’s employed by Sony, quite obviously making a game for pc that can be downgraded for the consoles… Only way to make a game with the scope he’s suggesting

    • Mirimon

      No, he works on msft titles and engines used by msft, and the Fable engine, not fabled. There is a solid list of ip’s worked on, all under msft liscense.

    • such.wow

      Fable is an Xbox game, Lionhead Studios is owned by Microsoft.

    • kreator

      He has a game coming out for the PS3.5 and X1 fall 2016.

    • Herald of Gaben

      And the Xbox 180 version will probably be inferior since Xbox 180 is weaker.

      Not sure how Microsoft could make such a trash system. The UI is still worse than the 360.

    • kreator

      you seem, why?

  • Cenk Algu

    Yes between both doesnt matter because the move engines on Xbox faster than ROPs.

  • MrSec84 .

    ROPs matter when game engines are built to use them (which is the case for all 3rd party game engines and most from platform holder’s studios), of course there are techniques like Media Molecule are using for Dreams, which don’t use ROP hardware at all, instead they’re using the GPU Compute Hardware because their rendering techniques don’t require rasterization.

    PS4 would always be faster at this kind of rendering because it’s compute intensive and PS4 has more of that kind of GPU hardware than XB1 does, same goes for any techniques that use Texture Mapping Units.

    If games are made to use Rasterization then PS4 is more capable, if games are made to use Compute or geared more towards that then PS4 is still substantially more capable.

    XB1 doesn’t have any extra hardware that makes up for the differences in GPU hardware, it’s behind PS4 in that area.
    The only area that XB1 is faster than PS4 is in the 10% clock speed boost to it’s CPU, because both systems have the same number of CPU cores, using the exact same architecture from AMD.

    • Dirkster_Dude

      I think I will go with the individual who is considered the expert quoted in the article instead of someone randomly commenting on the Internet. No offense meant.

    • richie brown

      100% agree, Game developers articles comments or a Fanboy armchair developer who thinks he knows more than an actual games Studio expert.

    • Mirimon

      The one under msft employ? The one contradicting reality?

    • Dirkster_Dude

      You see right there you have provided false information from wherever you pulled it from because the person doesn’t work for Microsoft. I would agree with you if you could show me proof instead of your simplistic view of I’m right and everyone is wrong attitude.

    • Mirimon

      Try looking him up kid…. oh, what’s that, nearly everything made under msft liscense??…. yeah…amazing how people say glorious things of the ones writing their checks.

    • Dirkster_Dude

      So you can’t actually prove anything that it was said because he is a mouthpiece for Microsoft. Why are you more of an expert than the person being quoted in the article? What do you bring to the table that makes me think the article and/or information in it is worthy of being called “clickbait”? The fact that you call me kid tells me you have nothing.

    • XbotMK1

      lol

    • Terminator

      That’s how it is. Because come on, if this Fanboy armchair basement dweller developer’s (as brown put it very well and I added a bit XD) knew what they where talking about they would be the ones getting interview, not only that but would be working for one of this companies making us something that would put their claims to the test and shut down the nay sayers but that’s not how it is.

    • kreator

      I agree!

    • kreator

      Co-sign!

    • XbotMK1
    • Psionicinversion

      Don’t even need to read any of that to know you havnt got a clue what the dev is trying to say

    • XbotMK1

      So when a dev tries to downplay the fact that the Xbox One is weaker, you defend him.

      But when I provide links to articles showing that the Xbox One is weaker, you sidestep.

      You lose, but at least you tried.

    • Psionicinversion

      No he’s saying because the xbox and ps4 are both based on jaguar and gcn they are very close in architecture whereas consoles before them like the ones listed were vastly different. But I guess your to stupid to understand that

    • Terminator

      TrollbotMK1 only reads what he wants to read and spins it.

    • XbotMK1

      Look in the mirror.

    • XbotMK1

      That is not all he stated. Read his statements again.

    • Terminator

      Where did he state or implied “So when a dev tries to downplay the fact that the Xbox One is weaker”

    • XbotMK1

      Obviously you haven’t seen many of Psionicinversion’s comments.

    • Terminator

      I am not talking about Psionicinversion’s, I’m talking about how you claim that this dev is saying that the Xbox One being weak doesn’t matter.

    • XbotMK1

      If you read his statements then it means any of the following.

      A – This is not all the developer had to say but Gamingbolt cherry picked quotes from this developer and made it into a missleading article.

      B – This developer is trying to downplay ROP differences which basically means downplaying the fact that Xbox One has less ROPs.

    • Terminator

      “This developer is trying to downplay ROP differences which basically means downplaying the fact that Xbox One has less ROPs.”
      That claim of yours falls flat with his example of the PS2, even when being the weaker of both its competitors if you worked and optimized with the best of your abilities you could get something just as good or better than the other two consoles.

    • XbotMK1

      That is not what he stated. What you just stated has to do with developer skill not hardware performance. It’s common sense that it is up to developers to utilize the hardware that is given. If Microsoft has talented developers and Sony had untalented developers, then obviously Microsoft’s first party games could look better.

      But that doesn’t change the fact that Xbox One and PS4 are the same GCN architecture with the only difference being that the PS4 simply has more compute units, ROPs, TMUs, ACEs, and faster RAM. You don’t need to be a skilled developer to utilize the extra performance.

      Using the PS2 as an excuse to downplay the fact that Xbox One has less ROPs doesn’t make any sense.

    • Terminator

      “Using the PS2 as an excuse to downplay the fact that Xbox One has less ROPs doesn’t make any sense.”
      Yes it does makes sense and its right up there for you to read, if you don’t want it to make sense because, knowing you, anything positive said about the Xbox One is a lie then that’s your problem.
      His PS2 example can be interpreted as follows: Xbox One may be weaker than the PS4 but if you work with the hardware with the best of your abilities, you can make something look just as good or better than what the PS4 has.

    • XbotMK1

      Nope it doesn’t make sense and that is not whate he stated.

      The PS2 was a very different architecture compared to the Gamecube and Xbox, even though it was weaker the PS2 had certain architecture advantages over the Gamecube and Xbox. But the PS4 and Xbox One are the same architecture. Also, he was refering to the RAM in the PS2.

      Like I said, using the PS2 to downplay extra ROPs doesn’t make any sense. You can’t use the PS2 as an example to downplay extra ROPs when the Xbox One doesn’t have any special architecture to make up for it. It has the same architecture, just weaker components.

      The only thing you’re right about is that even though Xbox One is weaker, it is ultimately up to developers how to use it.

    • Psionicinversion

      Yess I know and he also stated the ps4 is better at everything. So where is he actually down playing the xbox when he clearly states the ps4 is better??

    • Dirkster_Dude

      Not relevant but if it makes you feel better more power to you.

    • Riggerto

      They are several articles which have devs saying PS4 hardware is more powerful than XB.

      Because it was stated that developers know more than “arm chair experts”.

      Obviously very relevant.

    • Dirkster_Dude

      Still not relevant to me because despite all of the PS4 advantages in raw performance so far they haven’t been able truly pull away from the multiplatform games and even the exclusives don’t look so mind blowing that so much improvement over XB1 to account for that 50% raw performance on paper.

    • Riggerto

      900p vs 1080p

      Go on a PC run a game.

      Play it at 1080p. Measure the fps.

      Now. Play it at 900p. Measure the fps.

      There will be a quite a difference in fps. Why? Less pixels to push requires less hardware. It just so happens that devs have chosen to drop the res for “parity” between console versions but they just could have easily had both running at 1080p and dropped some of graphics settings/effects on XB (but that would be more noticeable).

      You may not be impressed with the difference between the two consoles multiplats because you already own an XB. So why would you bother spending another $400 for 633,000 more pixels?? You wouldn’t. Unless you want the PS exclusives.

      However for someone like myself on the market for a new console why would I buy an XB if I can get a more powerful PS for the same price? And in my case I do like the PS exclusives – which due to the more powerful PS hardware, will be something unable to be achieved on XB.

    • Rhodri

      “And in my case I do like the PS exclusives – which due to the more powerful PS hardware, will be something unable to be achieved on XB.”
      SMDH the irony.

    • Riggerto

      In what way?

      Explain. Using “irony”.

    • Rhodri

      It wont matter you most likely will just say how the game can be achieved on ps4 or some other bs. When the fact of the matter is Sony wont do it as they did not plan for it.

    • Dirkster_Dude

      Why would you think I have a problem with buying PS4? I probably would have bought one for the exclusives at least if I had the money right now. I’m not trying to convince you of anything I was just sharing my opinion. If you agree with me great. If you don’t agree with me that is also great.

    • Riggerto

      The reason is this:

      The discussion was why you would prefer to believe a dev over someone commenting on the Internet.
      You were presented with several relevant articles displaying devs with the opposing opinion to the article.
      You then stated it was irrelevant to you.

      Apologies if I took it the wrong way but I could not help but conclude that you were fervently defending X1 regardless of evidence presented to you.

    • Dirkster_Dude

      I realized when I was going to reply I could write a book as to why I considered those articles less valid than this one. The one about DX12 — This is a fact: DX12 will allow less instructions to be communicated at the hardware level and that will improve coding, which will improve game performance, because you will be able to do less with more. It will not improve current games but future games written with DX12. They were saying it wouldn’t help games at all in the article. That is just 1 example that I find bogus. By the way, I am a programmer — just not a game programmer. Then some of the articles were written at launch and things have changed since then. Not evened out exactly but Microsoft did open up another core for programmer use as an example.

    • sgt_hammertime

      armchair…..it must be comfy

    • kreator

      LMFAO

    • Samuel Sanchez

      Technically you are incorrect the Xbox also has faster ram core memory as well and a faster gpu clock speed. What it lacked was the additional shader pipelines Also in games made to use compute the Xbox should be much faster because the Xbox was designed for cloud computing to carry the Xbox the next 8 years with the Microsoft cloud services being vastly superior to the Sony service. This has been shown by several demo games utilize full cloud compute rendering completely blowing out any game released to date.

    • Mirimon

      Here we go, power of the clowdz again?

      If xbl is so great, why was it LOSING users up until Feb 2015, and had less users online than even Nintendo? Xbl does not get access to all of azure, to all of the 300k+ servers, it actually gets less than 1% of that, because few things actually run on xbl. Most played games are 3rd party, running their own dedicated servers… so what are you paying for?

      Xbl so great, has the slowest dl times, poorly distributed, and least users, all while being the most expensive?

      What happens to your game when xbl crashes (which seems often these days)? Yeah……the cloud has done nothing for its unability to push graphics on par with others, nor should it. And…. as if cloud compute is new…… sigh, don’t choke on the koolaid.

    • MrSec84 .

      No I’m not, GDDR5 is faster than eSRAM in XB1 and also faster than DDR3.
      Clock speed doesn’t mean a thing when a system has more hardware to spread processes over.

      XB1 isn’t faster because of cloud compute, that doesn’t change the specs inside of XB1, it’s something that any console maker can use.
      No demo has been shown to be used besides in controlled environments, on a convention stage and a dedicated and likely close to platform server in use.

      Comparing PS Now tow Azure is an apples to oranges comparison, since one is a game hosting service and the other is being used for multiplayer dedicated servers and some calculations handled over a fairly long period of time.
      Even crackdown 3 isn’t doing anything Just Cause 3 is on local hardware.

      Trying to use The Cloud to help out with any game physics, AI or Graphics will be heavily limited by latency and the bandwidth/data caps of people’s internet connections.

      No as far as local hardware goes PS4 is the superior machine in all but the small 9-10% CPU clock speed boost, both share the same core processing architecture, so they’re very comparable from an architecture perspective.

    • kreator

      You seem mad at what this EXPERT had to say, why?

    • XbotMK1

      This developer is just blowing smoke. These consoles are the same architecture but the PS4 simply has more compute power, so it doesn’t matter what excuses or lies these developers try to say. We’ve seen this kind of garbage from other devs before. Devs will try to downplay the hardware gap because these developers think it makes themselves look neutral. Then you have bias websites that post it.

      Gamingbolt is just doing what they always do. They cherry pick quotes from interviews and take them out of context so they can make missleading click-bait articles. They did it with Brad Wardell’s bullsht and the guy from Cloudgine. The title of this article is nothing but a click-bait lie. Anyone who claims ROPs don’t matter is delusional. Gamingbolt is a trash website that missinforms readers for the sole purpose of generating views.

      This is all part of the “save the Xbox One” campaign that many websites are currently involved in. They will post hypocritical news articles and feed people missinformation to try and position Xbox One as a better purchase.
      Many frauds from Forbes were doing it last holiday. The false narrative that Xbox One has more exclusives because the holidays are all that matter was created by these gaming journalist frauds in the media.

      For example, nobody was posting articles about the PS4 UI being faster, but as soon as the new Xbox One UI was released, news sites immediately started posting articles claiming the Xbox One UI is faster. Overall the media shows favoritism towards Xbox One. They let Xbox One get away with everything but they try to nit pick, twist, and spin anything about Sony ot the PS4 into a negative.

      That is why two years later, there are still websites acting like there is some sort of secret sauce inside Xbox One when it was proven two years ago that the PS4 is simply a stronger computer. The Xbox One uses cheaper components. There is nothing left to debate but you’ll still see these hypocritical Microsoft fanboys like Terminator, Starman, One the One, and many other Microsoft fanboys pop up on these articles out of hiding to troll or damage control when it’s convenient.

    • MrSec84 .

      Very true and well said.
      If ROPs were useless then they simply wouldn’t be used in either platform.Anyone being genuine would state that ROPs are actually used for outputting the final stage of a frame and also for filtering techniques like Anti-Aliasing.

      As I said before there are alternatives using completely compute based rendering techniques, like Dreams does, but it’s not commonplace and would likely require developers to make new engines or make major alterations to their current ones.
      Given PS4 has more of that hardware it wouldn’t help XB1 for MS to go with fully Compute Based techniques.

      The genuine answer to this whole thing is that PS4 is more capable in all areas, to say otherwise doesn’t make any sense, given that whatever techniques developers may attempt to come up with to close ground on XB1, could just be directly applied to PS4.

      DX12 doesn’t do anything that GNM cannot, since both are made to spread their CPU code wide and allow for each core to talk any chosen part of the GPU as and when it’s required.
      The only limitations would be memory bus based and PS4 is more capable in that area.

      Gamingbolt does seem to have become a haven for a few that like to spread nonsense and eat up the clickbait regardless of whether the headline makes any sense or not.

      Funny to read the comments these people make.

    • theduckofdeath

      You see a few of these articles from “Indie” developers on this site. The games are usually less demanding, so maybe it doesnt matter in those cases.

      Now, for this particular article, I think was he is getting at us that the PS4 GPU is underutilized, particularly the ROPs. I will explain:

      XB1: 12 CUs, 16 ROPs
      PS4: 18 CUs, 32 ROPs
      7950: 28 CUs, 32 ROPs

      That is my old Radeon 7950, whose whereabouts are unknown. My current card specs are 40/64.

      Perhaps additional ROPs would not benefit the XB1’s GPU. Maybe for the PS4, 32 ROPs is overkill for a real life scenario (rendering a game), but something over 16 would or could be beneficial. Outside of benchmarks, you may not see the use of all 32 (i.e., it is not reasonable to simply add up all the pieces).

      As you can see, a video card with 10 additional CUs uses the same 32 ROPs. The count maybe tied to the architecture are I haven’t seen anything but multiples of 16 or 32 in 5-6 years or so.

    • red2k

      You are proving anything because you are giving specific examples with specific techniques…. Off course if you use something that the other machine have less specs in that department will be a disadvantage for the other console. The same happens with PS4 if use an engine with tile resources, foward + rendering, cloud etc… In those terms Xbox will be ahead.

    • MrSec84 .

      No Xbox One is not ahead in any of those areas, since PS4 has the ability to use AMD’s very own Tiled Resources technique call Partially Resident Textures, it allows of developers to utilize 32TBs worth of textures.
      The bandwidth of GDDR5 in PS4 is superior to that of eSRAM and DDR3 in XB1.

      Forward Rendering is the standard technique used by most developers, it’s a technique that is compute bound and PS4 consequently has more of that harwdare.

      Both PS4 and XB1 share the same core GPU and CPU architecture, accept that PS4 has more GPU hardware.
      Things like DMAs aren’t processors capable of doing math, they can help with some compression and decompression tasks, things that basically add an extra link in the chain of memory management that PS4 doesn’t need to have, because it only has the one, fast and big pool of memory, relative to XB1’s set-up.

      If PS4 and XB1 had any differences in processor architecture or XB1 had some features that could help in this area then it would be capable of pushing ahead in some areas, but there’s nothing in the specs of the system that suggest that to be the case, at all.

      Cloud is something Sony, Nintendo or any company can use, it’s not unique to Microsoft, since it requires external hardware resources that are provided through an internet connection.

    • red2k

      -Partial resident textures is only the tip of the iceberg about what can do a hardware designed for Tile resources.

      -The bandwidth is not the problem of X1 the disadvantage is in the size 32mb.

      -The only game of PS running with Foward+ rendering is The Order and it is at 800p….

      -Sony don’t have something called Azure servers they have no way to compete in cloud computing.

    • such.wow

      The Order 1886 is not 800p.
      Sony has Cloud, it’s nothing special.

    • MrSec84 .

      Tiling is something that all platforms can do this generation, even Wii U can do this, PS4 is the superior machine in this area.

      Bandwidth is the issue as far as DDR3 goes, since that’s the main pool of memory, PS4 doesn’t have the problem of memory size or bandwidth.

      The Order 1886 isn’t 800p, 800p is below 1600X900, The Order is rendering 1920X800 active pixels. Forward rendering isn’t the reason why The Order 1886 isn’t running at 1920X1080. It’s because of the sheer volume of detail in that game, along with running multiple different filtering techniques alongside 4XMSAA.

      Sony doesn’t need Azure to use Cloud Computing, they could pay to use those servers if they wanted to or they could build their own or pay another company.
      The Cloud isn’t special, it’s available all over the place and it also has it’s limitations, namely in the Latency department and also in the available bandwidth, along with cost to the end user.

      If a company wants to provide their users with an extra console’s worth of performance, then you have to pay for that, plus extra money to make this a profitable business for Microsoft.
      If Microsoft wants to give each XB1 owner an extra 4 or 5 XB1’s each in the cloud then they’re going to have to pay for each SOC, Motherboard, Pool of Ram needed to do the number crunching, while also paying for energy needed to feed it, the broadband bandwidth for those extra units.

      If we’re talking about an extra 4 XB1’s per user, then that means each user has to likely pay at least $500 for their extra cloud performance, plus Microsoft needs to make sure the service is reliable, so extra hardware is needed to pick up the slack when servers have to be placed offline when they need maintenance, so at least 2X that in hardware is needed.

      Basically the whole cloud for free or cloud for my XBox Live Gold membership, giving me access to a constant extra 4X my XB1 is bull, it’s not a viable business for anyone, let alone Microsoft, unless they can get you and everyone else, me included to pay out at least $1000 over the life of my XB1.

    • red2k

      Man you are a fanboy…

      You are telling me that the Xbox One only use DDR3, that the ESRAM does not exist on the system and it is useless for tile resources, that move engines cant work with Async Compute for move the data without cost … I can’t talk with someone that even don’t know the hardware of X1.

      You’re tell me that The Order that foward+ rendering is not the reason to 800p??lol In fact if that game runs with deffered rendering wolud run at 700p and 20fps off course its important. The CPU of PS4 literally desapears when GPU is maxed out. That game only prove the disbalance of PS4 in terms of CPU/GPU.

    • red2k

      The real problem of Xbox One is how you will use correctly the ESRAM you need use it for shader works + render targets or split the work using asinc compute and runing ligthing and post procesing effect in the background. Only few devs can do that but its the future and the hardware of Xbox One is prepared to do the transition. The problem with that is you need create an enginefrom the ground for use those techniques and the developers prefer make a game compatible througth all plataforms without big changes and do work.

    • MrSec84 .

      The problem is that the GPU isn’t as capable as PS4’s and that eSRAM doesn’t have the capacity to provide developers with the storage capacity needed to keep up or even feed the system’s GPU to the same degree that a standard HD7770/90 needs, like 1-2GBs of GDDR5, clocked at the needed speed.

      eSRAM helps to make up for a few GB/s over say a few GBs of storage capacity for RAM, but that’s it.

      eSRAM can be used for small assets that needed to be drawn in fast, anything else is out of it’s reach. Any developer can do that, just just need the tools to help them analyze the data for their game, which is out there for any developer now or they have to create their own.
      New engines aren’t needed, since small cache with fast access, relative to a single big pool of memory, with slower speed has been available in XBox 360 since 2005, it’s just an expansion of resources compared to that.

      TBH it’s pretty easy for a developer to work that into PS4’s memory pool, since developers have more bandwidth to an 8GB pool, they can easily fit 55GB/s for one set of assets and then use the other 117GB/s available for anything else.
      If anything it’s substantially more flexible, the developer can just draw in huge assets into the RAM of PS4 and then swap out small portions of render targets and everything their rendering works across PS4 and XB1.

  • Psionicinversion

    Working on a never before seen scope… That’s a pretty bold statement these days.

    Obviously star citizen dominates everything in scope, everything else gets crushed under its boots so he better bring the goods!

    • Samuel Sanchez

      Star citizen is basically vaporware at this point. So many devs are talking about how unfinished the game is and how much money the company is bleeding because the lead developer is more interested in filming cut scenes then leading the design team of the game.

    • Psionicinversion

      Vaporware lmao, yeah ok because they have nothing to show for it!!

      Who are all these devs talking about it??? Only Roberts and a few other people have access to the accounts just like every other privately owned company in existence

    • Samuel Sanchez

      Either your slightly misinformed or your knee deep into the bs of a heavily delayed game and don’t want to admit the fact when there is smoke there is usually fire especially in video games. I’m not sure if you have been apart of many prerelease video games and mmos before. But stuff like this is bad news. Feel free to read and dismiss the article of you feel like it however I hope you don’t high intentions. http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/14695-Star-Citizen-Controversy-Reaches-a-Boiling-Point

    • Psionicinversion

      I’m not misinformed at all I’ve been following the project for for 2 years, lmao the escapist bunch of part time lay abouts. I listened to there 50 minute podcast about SC and they didn’t get a single piece of information right and it was very basic stuff they could of easily found out of they just simply asked the community or CIG but they didn’t bother.

      No smoke without fire eh… Ever thought people are stirring crap up for the sake of it?! If it crashes and burns so be it but at least someone actually tried make aPC game that isn’t held back massively in scope because of pathetic console hardware

  • nova

    The Dreamcast, Xbox and PS2 had a completely different architecture. So, why does he take such an example ?

    Then he says the PS4/XB1 have a very close architecture… he contradicts himself…

    • Terminator

      Before making baseless accusations understand what the man is trying to say first.

    • XbotMK1

      Care to explain it?

    • Anthony

      So basically what you’re saying is this dev is lying.

      The PS4 and Xbox One are the same architecture but the PS4 is stronger. Why is this developer saying ROPs don’t matter when the Xbox One relies on ROPs just as much as the PS4?

    • kreator

      Only to non video game dev’s!

    • Psionicinversion

      No he doesn’t he makes sense. Guess your a console guy because you don’t know what you’re talking about

    • XbotMK1

      Its because this dev is just trying to give these Xbox fanboys hope in a sorry *ss attempt to apear neutral.

    • nova

      Exactly, also many developers don’t dare to say the truth. They are afraid by Microsoft’s power in the industry..

      And they need to sell their games on XB1, so…

  • Mirimon

    Lol, asking a msft tool, and he says the differences don’t matter when evidence for two years shows otherwise….

    • kreator

      You still haven’t told us why you’re so mad at his statements tho!

    • Rhodri

      Did you not read the last paragraph?

  • Riggerto

    I think a lot of this (yawn) obsessive console specs war stuff will be settled for the general gamer when more PS4 games built from the ground up for PS4 are released (Uncharted will be a good one). It will show properly what a maxed out PS4 game looks like.
    These can be compared with XB games built from the ground up.

    Because at the moment even though XB games are continuously releasing on a lower resolution – (a pretty clear indication of less powerful hardware) there still exists doubt (I don’t know why personally).

    • kreator

      So we should compare UC4 to QB right?! QB looks miles ahead of UC4 miss!

    • Riggerto

      Oh ok. My mistake.

      (?)

    • Michelle Guerra

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    • XbotMK1

      What drugs are you on?

    • Rhodri

      “Because at the moment even though XB games are continuously releasing on a lower resolution – (a pretty clear indication of less powerful hardware) there still exists doubt (I don’t know why personally).”

      This is why
      “People DO understand that Microsoft has some of the smartest graphics programmers IN THE WORLD. We CREATED DirectX, the standard API’s that everyone programs against. So while people laude Sony for their HW skills, do you really think we don’t know how to build a system optimized for maximizing graphics for programmers? Seriously? There is no way we’re giving up a 30%+ advantage to Sony. And ANYONE who has seen both systems running could say there are great looking games on both systems. If there was really huge performance difference – it would be obvious.” -Albert Penello

    • Riggerto

      Halo 5.

    • Rhodri

      What about Halo 5?

    • Riggerto

      Serious question: Don’t you ever honestly wonder why so many games are running on a lower resolution on XB?
      Do you blame the devs? Or something else?

    • Rhodri

      I blame the SDKS. Phil did say the xbox one was meant for Directx12. But the devs could also be the blame(not for this particular game) they sometimes prioritize ps4 development. Some blame the esram some blame the gpu but if they don’t how to optimize for the system than that’s it.

    • Xbox one 2econd gpu unlocking

      We are Still under professional lockouts

    • justerthought

      They have ‘the faith’, and are waiting for the magic secret sauce and the ‘unlimited powah’ of the cloud. Very similar to brain washing power of religion.

    • Rhodri

      What are you talking about.
      http://videogamesandnews.com/p

    • DarthDiggler

      @justerthought:disqus

      At least religions are based in documents that are thousands of years old and have been passed down through the generations.

      Xbox One has no such traditions.

    • Edonus

      First thing you have to understand is that resolution isn’t test of a generation. The resolutions the X1 runs games at is not a “problem”.
      The reason games run at different resolution is complex… the simple answer is it would take more time for devs to get it there.
      On a technical note the X1 memory is split in a way that makes it harder for devs to create the and/or maintain the 1080p frame buffer.
      The subject is very interesting and technical but these websites have miseducted the community so bad that its a nightmare trying to unteach all the misinformation.

    • fbeans

      Yes it is a problem. When offered the choice to buy a game, why wouldn’t you buy the one with higher resolution given that all other aspects of the game are the same?

    • Edonus

      Because that is a very limited way in thinking. ….you wont buy a console for one game…. there are factors like other games and features that should hold more wait than a minor variation in pixel count.
      As an example…. If I was a consumer today and Battlefront is the game I am most excited for… I could buy it on Ps4 and get a barely noticeable visual bump… and then be stuck playing remasters and single player games.
      Or I could buy it for the X1 and get primarily 99% the same exact experience along with a much fuller set of functions and features in the system and the ability to buy Halo 5 and play on dedicated servers and/or Tomb Raider a year before anyone else.
      Its not wrong if you take the barely noticeable visuals and you may like single player games more than social ones. The bottom line is the differences resolution between these consoles give is way smaller than other surrounding factors.

    • fbeans

      Now PS4 only does remasters or single player games? Man that is even dumber than saying graphical differences don’t matter.

      If a person has both X1 and PS4. Why should they buy the inferior version of a game?

      If a person has no interest in exclusives for either system. Why would they buy the console that consistently puts out inferior versions of the same game?

      Yes, I understand there could be reasons like maybe most of your friends have an X1 or maybe you like the X1 controller better.

      That is besides the point. There obviously are different reasons why one might buy one system over the other.

      Graphics is one of those reasons why one might choose. And X1 loses hands down.

    • Edonus

      Its sad to say but as of right now…. YES. Ps4 only does remasters and a few single player games. They don’t have any games with big MP support and communities that are available else where.
      And again the visual difference is not enough to call one inferior. They are for the most exactly the same. There is nothing that you see in any multiplat on Ps4 that I wont see on the X1 version….. In truth the fact that the in game chat audio is (really) superior has more impact than the pixel count and the native pixel count is the only difference the final renders are 98% the same thing.
      Buying a Ps4 version because you think you are getting more is a placebo marketing trick.

    • theduckofdeath

      What matters, if we are judging a game on console X vs. The same game on console Y, is the effective outcome. Imagine the consoles are black boxes. Which one performs better?

      You are presupposing that “if the developers give the XB1 enough time, all games would match their PS4 counterparts”. That is obviously not possible in all cases.Where is this infinite money source to pay the devs for their unlimited work schedule? What happens when XB1 owners complain that their version is always 3-6 months late, and MAYBE hits 1080p@30 fps?

      If 1080p@30 fps was the minimum, the unbreakable rule of law for consoles, then devs would bend the game to meet those standards instead of the other way around. No amount of dev time is going to prevent that for the majority of games. That is not the way it should be.

    • Edonus

      You are actually just taking my point and being snarky about it. 1080p can be done by the X1…. this is with out question. The games we have had so far all of them could be done 1080p on the X1. The development cycle is what is the biggest factor here for devs. Uncharted 4 isn’t coming out this year because of the development cycle. To get the game were they want it to be they needed more time so they moved it back… but its an exclusive so they can and they also don’t want their biggest title competing against other major titles.
      The work falls on the technical side of game engines and memory use. Ps4 memory structure is very easy and straight forward. There is not a lot of wiggle room or creativity that can be done with it but it is at its core a design that will get you results based on what we have done with videogames before. The X1 is a different design. People have looked at the parts and seen x86 and went on telling people these machines are the same. That is actually very wrong. The slight differences in them is what sets the far apart from each other.
      A bigger factor in game development is the time constraints, if they need a game out for the holidays rest assured that game will be out for the holiday especially a multiplat game look at AC Unity.
      There are things that the Ps4 will be able to do that the X1 cant and vice versa but resolution isn’t it.

    • theduckofdeath

      Saying that XB1 or any machine can do 1080p isn’t saying much at all today. Of course it can output a game at 1080p. Any game can be contorted to fit 1080p 30 fps. Could the dev team achieve the same graphical fidelity at 1080p 60 fps? No. The game would have to be “optimized”, and a large part of optimization is stripping out geometry, features, effects, AI and the like.

      Halo 5 was high profile, and a Microsoft 1st title with tons of monetary resources and time. 343 went with a dynamic resolution. Cutting back to 30 fps would have alleviated much of the burden, but that is not what they wanted for the product. The game is not a graphical showcase, but the end result is very good. The Order is another example of a game that had to be cut back. The hardware limitations are evident and not going anywhere.

      Extra dev time eventually becomes diminishing returns. It is costly, and doesn’t guarantee any improvement. Time will tell — DirectX.12 will come to XB1, developers will have year after year of experience with the eSRAM.

      PS4 and XB1 are static from a hardware perspective, needless to say. They can optimize embedded software and tools all they want, there is no magic. Just as when your PC can’t run a game, you either turn down or off effects, upgrade or start over completely.

    • justerthought

      Same question, so it’s the same answer I gave above.

    • Rhodri

      You think the ps4 has more varied exclusives? Then you must not have seen the 2016 line up for Xbox. ( like 4 new ips and more)

    • justerthought

      Halo does not have the same draw it once did. It’s just preaching to the converted. But like Rocky films, it’s time to move on and develop some new exclusives that are even better. Not wallow in sentimental past glories while the PS4 moves forward with exciting new IP’s such as Horizon: Zero Dawn.

      Naughty Dog could have continued making Uncharted forever but they jumped to The Last Of Us which is the best game ever made on any platform. They are now making the next Uncharted the last, so they can continue with The Last of Us 2 and probably a totally new IP that will be even better than Uncharted.

      My point being, resting on your laurels is not a good idea in terms of long term future.

    • Rhodri

      So the Xbox doesn’t have these exciting new ips. That’s just a lie.

    • theduckofdeath

      I have to disagree with you on two points, in no particular order:

      1. The presumption of Horizon: Zero Dawn being exciting.

      2. The Last Of Us being the greatest game ever made. No. Just…just no.

      I suppose you could be excited “about” HZD, but it looks like the same old deal to me. Killzone was never great, it just had good graphics starting with 2. Many people are elated when they hear the term “exclusive”, but that doesn’t move my meter.

      The Last Of Us had a well done script. The story was borrowed from a multitude of movies. The gameplay was the same old stuff. You had less ammunition, but does it matter in a narrowly-scoped stealth game where you have 4 bullets in ech of 6 different semi-automatic weapons and a headshot is a kill?

    • DarthDiggler

      @disqus_qu556x8YEp:disqus

      Halo 5.

      You say that game title like it’s an argument stopper. 🙂

      What about Halo 5 is relevant to this conversation?

    • justerthought

      What you say would be true if the XB1 had been designed to perform best at game graphics, but it wasn’t. That’s the problem. MS had no faith in gamers and thought the consoles were living on borrowed time thanks to the mobiles and tablets.

      MS totally misread the market and decided to hijack the xbox brand and design the XB1 to be a multimedia machine in order to grab the TV couch potato market. The hardware inside the console is designed to work well at multimedia not games.

      When MS failed to capture the TV market and realised the gamers were still there, they realised they had made a huge boob. The gamers had not gone away. They were in hibernation waiting for better kit and the Sony vision had it covered, providing them with the better kit they wanted.

      MS are now fated with damage limitation for the rest of this gen until they release the next console, which will be gamer focussed just like the PS4.

    • Jacob S

      The Xbox one was meant to be a connected system and once MS had to do damage control- we are now left with a system that isn’t using all the eggs in it’s basket.

    • Rhodri

      If all you say was true the Xbox one would not have had as many exclusives as it did at launch.

    • Rhodri
    • DarthDiggler

      @justerthought:disqus

      Unlike fanboys, I don’t want to see xbox fail because all gamers would suffer from a lack of healthy competition, but I’m angry at MS for creating a disparity situation resulting from a greedy endeavour that went belly up.

      Granted I am not wishing failure on Xbox, but PlayStation would still have plenty of competition if MS wasn’t in the console business. Video games reside in the entertainment industry. So you have to consider that even if Sony had a monopoly on console games there are other industries it competes with for revenue and mind share. They simply could not raise prices to the stratosphere or diminish services without some sort of market consequences.

      Besides if MS got out, I think Sega may consider making another play or another competitor would emerge.

    • YOUDIEMOFO

      I would go as far as saying it is now turned on MS as far as the tables being in Sony’s favor for programming this time around.

      I am truly hoping that the tech holds true for M$ this go around and will make me want to invest in something that is revolutionary to say the least. Until then…..this is what we are left with and wondering why exactly their third party games are stretched/raked through the coals so as to not have the same visuals as others’ hardware.

    • DarthDiggler

      @Rhodri1:disqus

      Albert Penello is just an advocate for his brand. Can’t people see through that? LOL

    • Aldrex Chama

      PS4 actually uses great low level APIs…

    • justerthought

      Uncharted wasn’t just built from the ground up specifically for PS3 hardware, it was more importantly maxing out the CELL which was more powerful than the 360 hardware.

      The 360 enjoyed success with 3rd party games that did not make full use of the CELL due to it being difficult to programme. 3rd party devs just ignored the CELL and used the lame GPU for graphics in their ports.

      Sony made the mistake of designing the PS3 on the understanding that the devs would use the powerful CELL for graphics. Uncharted was maxing out the CELL so it was doing stuff that was impossible on the 360 hardware. PS4 does not make the same mistake. The extra power is easy to use so 3rd party games are now better on the PS4.

      The unexplained doubt you are feeling about the XB1 being weak is called desperately clutching at straws. Even when faced with the evidence of games in the wild, you still delude yourself that the secret magic sauce will come to save you.

    • Jacob S

      Just like lazy devs not using the esram and instead lowing the resolution for the Xbox one multi plats. Plus not freeing up resources by using the cloud. 3rd party games don’t make a valid comparison.

    • YOUDIEMOFO

      Just released…… Homefront developer says….”both systems maxed to their fullest potential using the newest SDK’s to date….” Albeit the Bone has 900p and the ps4 has 1080p….., or was it 900p on the ps4 and 720p on the bone….I honestly can’t remember and do not care to look it up as of now.

      Saying they are using each system to their fullest and most possible capabilities seems like a valid statement being made from a third party developer.

    • DarthDiggler

      @youdiemofo:disqus

      I am not doubting that Homefront Devs have maxed out each system for the time being, but do you really think that means there is no room for improvement over the course of this generation?

    • YOUDIEMOFO

      Totally agree with you about there being room for improvement….on both systems. Thinking about the gap in performance now and about where it will go in the future is truly up in the air. Just kind of tough/hard to swallow such a difference regarding multi-plats.

      I’m still waiting for them to “make me” want to buy an Xbone……mainly for its cloud power if and when it proves itself.

    • DarthDiggler

      @badreams:disqus

      I am sick of hearing people call developers lazy. Is a minimum 50 hour work week lazy? Is working evenings and weekends lazy?

      The PS3 didn’t have a very good API when it was released which caused the games to suffer. Sony made a decent API for PS3 and the ones for PSV and PS4 have been excellent.

      Developers are generally going to favor the system with the stronger install base it just makes economic sense. It’s not a matter of effort its a matter of dollars.

    • theduckofdeath

      People refuse to believe that one system will inevitably have lesser performance. They dump all the responsibility on the s/w developers and sanctify the hardware developer (I’m a s/w engineer **sniff**)

    • Guadalupe Johnson

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    • theduckofdeath

      It is at a point where hardware capability is all but established. There are no surprises, you know want you are getting, so just focus on the games.

      I play multiplats on PC so I’m free from all that nonsense. From there it boils down to what system and services you prefer, the exclusives and where you game friends play (if that is important to you).

      Or you could buy multiple systems.

  • aaron

    Love this. All these comments below are crying about ps4 has more this, more that… its better… well you jerkoffs, my Xbox one faster than your ps4, that’s a fact. And I’m playing my old games for free. What’s new with ps4? You losers still waiting for Unchartered? Of course you are. Your ps4 is the best…….. no more!!!!

    • Herald of Gaben

      Xbox 180 is slower than the PS4 you tard.

      How many lies and 180’s has Microsoft made this gen? Didn’t Microsoft claim backwards compatibility was a waste of time, and then added it two years later because they paniced after the PS4 destroyed them in sales.

      It takes a real special Microsoft fanboy to pay more for a weaker console with less games, and then cheerlead for it on the internet.

    • usherjerksoffsonyfanboys

      I’m pretty sure he’s talking about the new UI test, and MS said they didn’t think it was possible and they wanted to focus on a new experiences at launch, not that it was a waste of time.

      It must take a special fanboy like yourself, to twist words to try and bash a console.

  • GHz

    Williamson is 100% right.

    ““Data such as this really doesn’t matter as different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways. Coupled with different engines being built to take advantage of different hardware peculiarities, the numbers really only make sense if you want to build graphs of random data”

    I’ve been saying this same thing in layman’s terms for the longest. You see evidence of this in the 1st party titles on both systems. What confuses pple is that they believe resolution is a marker that can tell you which console is the superior one, which is 100% false. Everything (code) cost something.

    As long as 3rd party multiplats games are being developed in dx9-dx11 environment, most will always have an advantage on PS4. Blame the old code/old ways. When your graphic engine allows you access to all cores of your GPU, then we’re talking next gen development. DX11 doesn’t allow that. XB1 is like a sports car with a flat tire right now running on DX11.

    • Riggerto

      So. Microsoft knowing this maybe should’ve held off on Halo 5 with its many “flat tires”?

    • GHz

      LOL 😀

      Yup flat tires everywhere. But no, they didn’t need to hold off because Halo is a great game in every sense of the word. You don’t feel like you’re missing out on anything when playing that game. Iv’e always said that what MSFT try to accomplish in their games are scale with the performance locked. Its way easier to just up the textures of your games, 1080p it if you can cause that depends on the FX and frame rate you choose. Mind you quality of pixels trumps quantity of pixels.

      But its something to see games like Forza 6 & Halo 5 locked @ 60fps with the great quality of graphics with all those rich features. For them to do that on a “weaker” system in DX11 is something. It’ll be interesting to see what will happen when DX12 unlocks the other GPU cores. This is, One GPU with its many cores. DX11 only allows devs access to one.

    • Riggerto

      I’m no expert but im pretty sure DX12 does not “unlock GPU cores”. I think it’s more about how the multiple CPU cores can run more parallel with the GPU (PC gamer has a good explanation).

      No offence to Xboxers like yourself (because as a PC gamer myself DX12 will also be having an effect on my hardware of choice) but, while it will improve some aspects I don’t think it will be quite the revolution you may be expecting. Especially on console where things are already pretty optimised.

      It’s ok for us to speculate at this point though of course (kinda fun!)

      2016 looks poised to be really interesting as both sides (Sony and MS) have a lot of followers expecting great miracles!

    • GHz

      You’re right! We are not experts. That’s why its good to pay attention to the experts, and when they say something, we listen. Especially to those who have access to the tech. Its up to us if we want to believe them or not.

      “DirectX 11: Your CPU communicates to the GPU 1 core to 1 core at a time.” – Brad Wardell

      “DirectX 12: Every core can talk to the GPU at the same time and, depending on the driver, I could theoretically start taking control and talking to all those cores.” – Brad Wardell

      I tend to listen to everyone. Engineers who have access, and those who don’t. And those who have access only have great things to say. Those who don’t are the ones actually speculating. But what they have to say is interesting nevertheless.

  • Dangerousjo 1985

    honestly the only thing I can say is interesting, I’m far from an engineer so who am I to argue with him, time well tell everything..

  • Kinect

    Complete lies. No suprise coming from Gamingbolt.

    He never stated ROPs don’t matter. People are definitely missunderstanding what he stated.

  • justerthought

    I sense Mr Williamson is a little too close to MS with the Fable exclusive to be unbiased, so I get the impression we have damage limitation going on here.

    His original premise is flawed. “Different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways.” That sounds plausible until but when the XB1 runs 900p instead of 1080p on PS4, how is that achieving “the same effects.” It’s a fail.

    Ofcourse new tricks will be devised to squeeze more and more out of each console, but that works for both consoles. The current status is well proven with actual games in the wild showing the difference.

    • Rhodri

      “His original premise is flawed. “Different hardware achieves the same effects in different ways.” That sounds plausible but when the XB1 runs 900p instead of 1080p on PS4, how is that achieving “the same effects.” It’s a fail, pure and simple”

      No one has said that directx12 will be secret sauce it was just meant for the xbox one so the entire time devs could have been using a gimped SDK.
      http://videogamesandnews.com/phil-spencer-say-directx-12-wont-help-xbox-one/

  • Edonus

    If you actually understood what a ROP is you would know they don’t make a difference.
    A ROP is like the pipeline that sends out everything that has been built. So say you have enough ROPs to send out 1440p and your system makes content at 1080p…. your final display from the ROPs will be 1080p.
    Now the reason they don’t matter is because we already know the X1 and Ps4 has enough pipelines to send a 1080p image because they both have already. These two console are made for standard consumers. Standard consumer TVs are currently 1080p so neither console will need to display a game over 1080p thus the extra pipelines or (ROPs) are not a factor.

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  • Michael Norris

    Sorry but he lost me after this ”PS2’s DMA system was so fast that you if you were clever enough, you could swap this out 16 times a frame and get an effective 32MB of VRAM.” Ps2 still had nasty looking textures compared to both GC and Xbox.

  • Guadalupe Johnson

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